Will Your Body of Work Benefit From Licensing or Certification with Pamela Slim

You’ve built a successful consulting practice using methods, tools and frameworks you’ve developed and road-tested with clients—is it time to ratchet up your impact and revenue? Award-winning author, speaker and certification expert Pamela Slim walks through the practical and strategic considerations of scaling your IP.

Pam shares her from-the-front wisdom:

The benefits of deliberately codifying your intellectual property: your approach, methods, tools and frameworks.

Why B2B programs are often an easier sell (and far more lucrative) than B2C programs.

How to tell if your business is a good candidate for developing licensing or certification programs.

One wildly successful real-life example of practitioner certification.

The value of building your marketing engine (spoiler alert: it doesn’t have to be big to be mighty).

 

LINKS

Pamela Slim Website | The Widest Net | Books | LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook

Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram

BIO

Pamela Slim is an award-winning author, speaker and agency owner who has spent three decades helping business owners scale their businesses and IP.

Pam’s agency specializes in the design and development of certification and licensing programs. She is the author of Escape from Cubicle Nation (Penguin Portfolio, 2009), Body of Work (Penguin Portfolio, 2014) and The Widest Net (McGraw Hill, November, 2021, winner of Best Sales and Marketing Book of 2021 from Porchlight Books).

Pam and her husband Darryl co-founded the K’é Community Lab in Mesa, Arizona, where they host scores of BIPOC entrepreneurs and contribute to the local social, health and economic development of their community.

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TRANSCRIPT

00:00 – 00:17
Pamela Slim: Ideas are out there everywhere. The challenge, the hard thing, is taking that idea, putting it through a specific process where you can actually end up translating it into concrete behaviors that people besides you can be doing at scale out there in the world.

00:23 – 01:07
Rochelle Moulton: Hello, hello. Welcome to Soloist Women, where we’re all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I’m Rochelle Moulton. And today I’m here with Pamela Slim, award-winning author of 3 books, speaker and agency owner who spent 3 decades helping business owners scale their businesses and their IP. Her agency specializes in the design and development of certification and licensing programs. Plus, she and her husband, Daryl, co-founded the CAH Community Lab in Mesa, Arizona, where they host scores of BIPOC entrepreneurs and contribute to the local social, health, and economic development of their community. Pam, welcome. Thanks so much

01:07 – 01:27
Rochelle Moulton: for having me. I’m delighted to be here. Well, I’m delighted to have you on the show for many reasons. But the initial spark was when I read your second book, Body of Work, just last year, and I put you on my ideal guest list. And then when you showed up in my inbox via Alastair McDermott, I figured I’d better ask you right then. So I’m really glad you’re here.

01:28 – 01:49
Pamela Slim: It’s so fun. We were just saying pre-show what a serendipity it is. It’s amazing given the alignment of our work that we haven’t met before, but I love that it took a wonderful thought leader in Ireland that actually brought us together. We could probably throw a stone from my desert dwelling to you in Palm Springs and we could hit each other. So isn’t that beautiful?

01:50 – 02:15
Rochelle Moulton: Exactly, small world, sometimes big world. Well, as I was preparing to talk with you, I clicked to your website and the first thing I saw was your headline. You have the power to shape the world through your work. And I love how with that statement, you set up this idea that everything we do in our businesses not only matters, but that we can deeply connect it to the change we want to make in our world.

02:16 – 02:52
Pamela Slim: Yeah, I so appreciate you picking up on that. This is probably the thought. Usually I go in waves and cycles for months, sometimes years, of really deeply exploring a core element of the way that I’m looking at business or the way that I’m doing work with clients. And at this stage, I’ve been experimenting. I’m getting ready to be doing some keynotes this year, which will be really fun to be on the road. And those of you who do that know it’s probably the best way to make sure you are clear in your thinking and what your

02:52 – 03:23
Pamela Slim: big ideas are, because you think about being up on stage with other people. But part of really what’s been hitting me about that and around my work is 1 of the things that I observe a lot as an author and a long time business coach and somebody who works with thought leaders, especially interfacing with more mainstream publishing and the way that we tend to celebrate thought leaders, is there’s a lot of focus on just the idea, whatever that idea is, you know, AI, habits, you know, amazing great things that I think a lot of us can

03:23 – 03:59
Pamela Slim: be driven by that thought of, oh, if I could just think of the thing, that big great idea, I could get the book deal, I could be distinguishing myself between other competitors, and we think about it sometimes in that singular way. Part of what has me really work it through based on 1 of my strong through lines in my own body of work is being a training and development, organizational development person, which is ideas are out there everywhere. The challenge, the hard thing, is taking that idea, putting it through a specific process where you can actually

03:59 – 04:36
Pamela Slim: end up Translating it into concrete behaviors that people besides you can be doing at scale out there in the world and that middle section involves sometimes Instructional design and change management and psychology and philosophy all of these kinds of things of what it actually takes for taking a big idea. Like, hey, we should focus on habits. James Clear’s great book, Atomic Habits, such a powerful idea, it’s so interesting. We think about really what it takes in order to be implementing that into our life, to really change the way that we are, that to me is this

04:36 – 05:07
Pamela Slim: interesting intersection between often the market fit of ways that we’re communicating and telling our story and driving interest for ideas, the method, the way that we actually develop something that consistently over time can make change, and then the model, which is the way that we can be describing things in a way in which it’s sticky so that people remember it And again, they begin to develop these habits in their everyday life where they really do things differently because we’ve architected it that way.

05:08 – 05:38
Rochelle Moulton: It’s interesting, Pam, because I was going to ask you some questions about your business, but I will come back to that because I want to explore this a little bit more. It’s a really great setup for what we’re going to talk about today. But let me ask you about you, because 1 of the great things about looking at the entrepreneurial part of your career is that it’s long, right? You’ve been doing this for a while. You’ve written 3 books that, again, from the reader perspective, they’re quite different, and yet they’re connected. So will you talk just

05:38 – 05:50
Rochelle Moulton: for a moment about how you see your body of work and the threads that connect some of the really interesting things that you’ve done in those in those chunks of years because I can I can kind of see where your brain was going?

05:50 – 06:28
Pamela Slim: Absolutely. So I think in the biggest arc, the early days of my work, my degree in college actually was international development. So I have a very long winded major, which was the focus was non-formal education as a tool for social and economic change in Latin America. So I studied in Mexico and Colombia. A lot of the systems that you study in economic development are extremely similar to the kinds of models that you might see in organizational development, in change management. And so I was always driven early on and just excited. I was an exchange student multiple

06:28 – 07:00
Pamela Slim: times and studied abroad and was just really interested in transformational change, especially things like really eradicating harmful systems and creating more equity in the world. So those were like my earliest roots. And I worked through more of the nonprofit model for a while, and then I kind of fell into the world of training and development, which I actually ended up being so excited by because it had some of these elements that I was really excited by that I saw in the international work. I just knew that it wasn’t a fit based on my philosophy of being

07:00 – 07:29
Pamela Slim: this fresh-faced 20-something white girl from Marin County, California originally, like living in Columbia doing economic development. I was like, I’ve met people from there that are so much better at making that change. And I don’t really believe in that like external person parachuting out from a theory of change perspective. So it allowed me to really then dig into a whole number of years while I was working inside corporate, which I actually loved, which surprises some people, knowing that the first book I wrote was Escape from Cubicle Naked.

07:29 – 07:30
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, it’s Not intuitive.

07:31 – 08:04
Pamela Slim: That’s right. But it really is this lifelong enthusiasm for how can we make transformational change? How can we make communities, organizations more healthy, and really embracing training and development as a tool in order to do that. So I worked, my last real job was 28 years ago at Barclays Global Investors as the Director of Training and Development. I think they’re BlackRock now. They went through a whole series of acquisitions, but I left there and then spent the first 10 years of my career as a management consultant in Silicon Valley. And that was so fun and interesting.

08:05 – 08:34
Pamela Slim: Got to just do all kinds of different projects, really for growing and scaling a lot of tech companies. And then around 2005, I met my husband, wanted to move to Arizona and be off the road so much. And that’s when I launched my blog, Escape from Cubicle Nation, that really dove me into this exciting exploration of helping people who were in corporate who wanted to leave and start a business, which were many of the clients that I had actually interfaced with when I was a consultant. And so I spent about 10 years in a deep dive

08:34 – 09:04
Pamela Slim: there, which led to my first book deal, and then really doing a lot of work and developing my own body of work around tools to help people do that early stage transition. Then I just started to slide more in the body of work years, the way that you begin to understand body of work, many ways that was a reaction to noticing how a lot of people in the startup space were saying, you can only be creative and free if you work for yourself. It felt so limited, untrue, privileged, frankly, right? Not everybody can do it. It’s

09:04 – 09:35
Pamela Slim: hard. Work is hard in general, but I think the main focus and the tools I wanted to bring forth in that next stage was to help people be more deliberate about just what is that body of work they wanted to move forward. Having a metaphor much like artists or writers do of saying you don’t always have to be doing the same thing over time and you can have experiment with different work modes as you’re building your body of work at different stages of your life depending on what’s going on. You can choose to work deliberately in

09:35 – 10:06
Pamela Slim: different models. So it’s perfectly okay if you work for yourself for a while and that works, then you decide to go back and work for an organization, awesome. Then you might work for a smaller firm, You might start a nonprofit. It’s more about that context that you create and really being deliberate about driving satisfaction based on what work that you’re creating. How are you using your gifts and skills to bring great work into the world? So that body of work, body of work came out in around 2014. And I just spent a lot more time easing

10:06 – 10:38
Pamela Slim: in some ways a little bit more toward people who are doing work at scale, kind of like the earlier work that I had done, you know, as a management consultant. And I’m an author practitioner, I often say. So I write books based on what I’m seeing and hearing and experiencing with clients. When clients were getting more deliberate about the work they wanted to bring forth, usually the main question was, where are my customers? How can I consistently and not in a not overwhelming way generate all kinds of leads and referrals and visibility? So that’s really where

10:38 – 11:13
Pamela Slim: the widest net came around full circle, where actually a lot of the ecosystem building principles that grassroots development models absolutely fit into work that I was doing and in the way that I would talk about business development with my clients. And then as you said in the intro, about 7 and a half years ago, my husband and I also opened up this community lab here in Mesa really utilizing all the principles in that widest net method. Widest net was my latest book that came out in 2021. And so looking backwards that’s often where we see that

11:13 – 11:32
Pamela Slim: through line, right? Widest net was helping people get their body of work out. Body of work was a reaction saying, hey, if it doesn’t work as an entrepreneur, that’s not the only way to think about it. But I didn’t necessarily have that perspective from the beginning, right? I was more reacting to work that happened and issues that came forward.

11:33 – 11:58
Rochelle Moulton: Well, yeah, I was really impressed with this idea that you created a physical space that manifests the change you want to see, right? Because that’s the hardest thing sometimes is to do physically what we’re talking about virtually. So I think you get extra bonus points for that. Well, it’s a real joy that 1 part just for brevity I left out when I was in San Francisco for about 11 years.

11:58 – 12:31
Pamela Slim: I was the volunteer executive director of an Afro-Brazilian martial art group, Capoeira, which I was a passionate practitioner and eventual teacher working with an artistic director. So I’d actually done lots and lots of work on a local level in San Francisco doing community building and engagement. So it was kind of a coming home for me, but here in Arizona of doing the local engagement work and I’m not bearing the lead. It’s now been publicly communicated, but we’re actually will come up on 8 years in June Which is when our lease will be up and we have

12:31 – 13:05
Pamela Slim: come full circle to be closing that project. So my husband and I, it’s always been something that we knew was not by definition supposed to be something that was long-term the way that we built it. It was specific space that we opened up for. My husband is Navajo, So he’s a Navajo traditional healer. So it really was a specific space that we provided at no fee to BIPOC entrepreneurs in our community to really experiment, have events, you know, sort of get support in an informal way that now where we are in the process of economic development

13:05 – 13:18
Pamela Slim: here, we’ll be moving forward in a different way, like with partners moving forward. So it just another chapter and you notice it tends to be around 7 to 10 year cycles in which projects happen.

13:18 – 13:26
Rochelle Moulton: And it also explains something that I saw, I think, in social that said there’s going to be some big changes this year, so now I know what

13:26 – 13:26
Pamela Slim: that meant.

13:26 – 13:51
Rochelle Moulton: That’s right. Well, congratulations, though, because I like how you’re looking at this as it’s a process and it needed to be a physical space until it didn’t. And you know, I think a lot of times we tell ourselves a story about what we did that is bad versus because it works differently than what other people might define as success. Closing the center is progress.

13:52 – 14:27
Pamela Slim: 100%. Yeah. And it really is. It’s tied to, I’m a big proponent of theories of change and really having an analysis about how and why that you’re doing things. And if we had 13 hours, I would go on a long diatribe about some of the critique about approaches that we can have, for example, to community projects or nonprofits. Just tangentially, 1 of the things that I noticed over and over and over is that most of the ways in which people specifically want to be engaging with BIPOC, Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian entrepreneurs is by immediately coming to

14:27 – 15:03
Pamela Slim: a space, designing a program, usually without any input from the community, and just trying to put tons of focus and energy into launching it and trying to sell and pull people into the space. And my husband and I have a very, very different approach of that’s actually not what’s necessary. We spent many years in deep engagement listening and just really supporting efforts that people were doing, which means now we have an extremely deep, connected relationship with folks. And so now, in terms of being able to partner to be creating some of the longer-term programs, That first

15:03 – 15:33
Pamela Slim: of all, for me as a white woman, I never want to be centered in that work. That’s not a role that I choose. It’s more in being able to provide the support, but with partners now where we have a really long-term impact. So it’s very deliberate, and while many things we were experimenting as we went through time, I think 1 of the things I’m most proud of and why we made the choice to personally fund it, and we haven’t gotten any outside funding from anybody all this time, is just to really lean into the purity of,

15:34 – 16:12
Pamela Slim: let’s really just have this premise that we lean into of respecting that the issue is not. Very, very often, most times, that BIPOC entrepreneurs, folks who might be under-resourced or under-recognized, need specific training around how to be leaders or entrepreneurs. Most of the time that’s not the case. They already are. They just need space and support in order to do their thing. And a lot of programs that are developed in the entrepreneurial world are more, you know, let’s put you through 27 hours of training about QuickBooks and, you know, hypothetical 8-hour day sessions on elements of

16:12 – 16:40
Pamela Slim: entrepreneurship that, again, is really not addressing what the true need is. So it’s been a joy and a choice. And of course, it has some related costs to doing things exactly the way that we wanted to do it. But for the dorkiness of me as a practitioner, I’m so, so glad that we decided to do it that way, because the learning and the impact and the strength of our community is just something I never could have imagined.

16:41 – 16:47
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, sometimes you really want control by not taking outside money, even when it’s a great idea.

16:47 – 16:48
Pamela Slim: Yes, exactly.

16:48 – 17:25
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. So Pam, when I first imagined this interview, I was 100% wanting to focus on your body of work book, which is 10 years old now, because it hit me emotionally. And I thought it might resonate with this audience of soloists. But the more I dug into your work, the more I wanted to talk about how listeners can explore whether their body of work might benefit in revenue and or impact from licensing or certification. I really felt a very similar emotional connection to the work you’re doing in this area as I did with the first book

17:25 – 17:37
Rochelle Moulton: of yours that I’d read. Should we start with a description? Like what exactly, when you say licensing and certification, what exactly do you mean? And maybe we should start with intellectual property first.

17:38 – 18:09
Pamela Slim: Absolutely, yeah. Let’s just get some of the terms defined and out there. So 1 of the ways to think about it, where we’ve talked about your audience as being, for example, people who are really strong subject matter experts that might be consultants where they’re doing a specific kind of consulting in a large company. So let’s say, for example, there’s an approach to the implementation of new software in a company, right, that can be your particular expertise. So you have an approach, which I define as a method for us on the certification side, is you can have

18:09 – 18:43
Pamela Slim: a very specific approach, a method, a way that you might do it that is really well studied. You have everything engineered for the least steps possible to make it as easy as possible for it to happen and often then you also have models in that that can be things like you know tools or frameworks or references that become really your unique approach to how it is that you’re doing that work. And that essentially, intellectual property is just the way that you have a codified, documented approach that really is coming from your own ideas and that you

18:43 – 19:17
Pamela Slim: can protect through things like trademarks and copyright that are Protectable parts of intellectual property that you can actually make sure that you protect it by other people are just taking the ideas and using it That you have some kind of legal recourse Much more importantly on the business side then now you also have things that you can be selling at scale. And so intellectual property, just, you know, where your ideas are clear and codified and usually to the level where they can be trademarked, they’re recognized as your unique ideas. For Many of us practitioners, myself included,

19:17 – 19:49
Pamela Slim: we are influenced. We might use tools from many other thought leaders and consultants in our work. We might pull in different models and methods. 1 of the things to think about for folks that are a little bit earlier on this first part of the journey, like just codifying your specific approach, is as much as possible, If you can think about trying to create more of that just clean system that’s really based on your own thinking first, because when we start to step into other areas where you’re licensing or certifying people, if you are including any other

19:49 – 20:27
Pamela Slim: people’s IP, you need to have written and legal permission in order to do that. So that’s that’s a really important first piece. So That first step when you’re thinking about maybe more of a scaled model, and we don’t mean scaled by hiring a million people, but having the mechanisms in which you can be getting your ideas out into the world, changing it into behaviors for other people, you need to codify it and protect it first. What licensing is in a simple way to think about it is just a legal agreement that documents what exactly can people

20:27 – 21:04
Pamela Slim: use of your IP for how long and how much. That is a simple way to think about it. A licensing agreement is just, you know, specifying that you can use my particular framework for a year and sometimes you have like for how many people so you know 2, 000 people in the organization can use it for $500, 000, you know, whatever that is. And so you have this agreement that’s specifying how others can use it legally, but it’s contained within a business agreement about what are the conditions under what they how they can use it. Where

21:04 – 21:42
Pamela Slim: certification comes in is where you want to have a consistent process in which you’re teaching others how to use your IP. I think about it like what would make people really excellent stewards of your intellectual property, as opposed to just throwing the funder over the wall or giving them access to an online training. What is that specific learning intervention, learning process, where they can have all the knowledge, skills, tools, and behaviors to be good stewards of the material and where they will have everything they need to be delivering it consistently and effectively.

21:43 – 21:46
Rochelle Moulton: So like a train the trainer would fall under that category.

21:47 – 22:22
Pamela Slim: That’s right. A train the trainer is 1 example where you might train people inside a company. Let’s say they want to bring your amazing software implementation process into the entire organization. You might have a train the trainer certification program so that you have key people in your client organization Who are aware of how to deploy it and then they could actually take it and run with it like training other people in the company You also can have we were given an example of my dear friend Jonathan Fields, where you can have what we call a practitioner

22:22 – 22:58
Pamela Slim: certification. He has a tool called the Sparketype that is kind of a disk-like tool or Myers-Briggs, you know, more of an assessment to help people understand their preferred work roles and their kind of passion work areas. And so that practitioner certification can be where you can get certified to know how to use that tool in many cases, like as an external consultant. So you could use it with your clients, for example, or it can be that companies can use it internally. So there’s just different levels and ways to think about what certification is. The first level

22:58 – 23:38
Pamela Slim: we call a certificate can be more of a structured, complete learning experience that, think about it like a badge that people would be proud to be sharing on LinkedIn. So it could be a little bit more self-study. Maybe you’re certified to be an expert in these particular job-related skills. And so there’s just different ways that you can really do the packaging. But 1 of the important distinctions, the ways that certification and licensing works together, is you can have a licensing agreement without a certification program. So let’s say you have some particular IP that’s really well defined

23:38 – 23:47
Pamela Slim: that maybe your client can just take and put directly into their system. You could create an agreement with them, hopefully with many zeros attached to it. So they

23:47 – 23:49
Rochelle Moulton: could- Many, many zeros, right?

23:49 – 24:20
Pamela Slim: They could license your materials for an extended period of time. So you can have licensing without certification, but you can’t have certification without licensing. Usually if there’s some kind of program or a method, there needs to be this designated training process where people learn the skills, you know, tools they need to be deploying it. And then always as part of that certification, it includes a licensing agreement so they know exactly what they can use, how they can use it, for how much and how long.

24:20 – 24:55
Rochelle Moulton: Well, and I just want to throw in there, as part of the getting ready to talk to you, I took a look at Jonathan Fields’ program and I got sucked down the rabbit hole with it and I shared it with 3 close people. And I immediately bought the book because of course I wanted to understand more about what he said. And according to the book, at the time that was published, he had something like 500, 000 people take the assessment. And since then he’s updated the number to I think roughly 850, 000 so ignoring the financial

24:56 – 25:02
Rochelle Moulton: side of that just the impact of getting your idea to that many people is really profound.

25:03 – 25:32
Pamela Slim: Exactly. And it is, to me, what is so interesting, it is a path that not everybody wants to take. And that is perfectly okay. I have never been a coach or an advisor that says there’s 1 path that everybody has to take. I would, in fact, have gotten very annoyed through the years. People have grown that at me, like, what are you doing? And why aren’t you creating this? Why are you still coaching? You know, I just, I think each of us gets to decide exactly how we want to operate. But where you do get excited

25:33 – 26:09
Pamela Slim: about getting your ideas out at scale and very efficiently, this is where I think some of these models around licensing and certification can be really powerful. And I would say especially in the B2B world, because we joke internally in my, inside my agency, it’s bigger checks. Anybody who’s ever sold B2C, where you’re selling your services directly to individuals knows how much how much effort and energy it can take to convince a wonderful human out there that’s taking out their own credit card and making their own budget decision versus when you have certain deals where you might

26:09 – 26:36
Pamela Slim: be signing a multiple hundreds of thousands of sometimes millions of dollars of licensing agreement that can take a long time to work in the sales cycle, but it can be a much different kind of investment where you’re building a relationship with 1 main client, as opposed to sometimes needing hundreds of thousands of people within your world in order to get enough of them to be giving you the kind of revenue that you would get from the B2B side.

26:37 – 26:56
Rochelle Moulton: Exactly. And not every niche that people are in has hundreds of thousands of people. So what are some of the benefits, both obvious and maybe some non-obvious benefits of developing 1 of these programs from your IP. What do your clients typically see?

26:56 – 27:29
Pamela Slim: So I think there’s some main areas. 1 of them, as you said, is just the ability to really see the increase of impact. It sounds like we both work with people that really do care about what it is that they’re doing, and especially where you’re developing your own IP and putting so much time and effort and energy into it that it’s exciting. You want it to get in many hands, and it can be really exciting to get it out at scale. It is just the constraints, when you are an individual practitioner, that as the kids say,

27:29 – 28:01
Pamela Slim: the math doesn’t math, in terms of your time, where if you’re developing a whole bunch of demand for what you’re doing and either you’re on Zoom all day, every day training people on it or if you’re jumping on planes and going all over the country, there is a certain place where you realize you just come up against the wall of your human capacity to be delivering something at scale. And so you can look at things like an online class or certain resources that don’t have to necessarily be licensing or certification, which can be great options as

28:01 – 28:33
Pamela Slim: a step in that direction. I think when you get a little bit more deeply into the impact of having something specifically designed to really be building the capacity of others, to be deeply steeped in understanding your method, and then for them to be able to deliver it to others, that’s the part where you just start to see this exponential growth, right? You imagine 1 individual that gets trained and certified where they’re using their tools with their client base, which could be a hundred, a thousand, you know, more, that’s where you just start to see the numbers

28:33 – 29:02
Pamela Slim: really growing in terms of impact. So that’s 1 part of it, I think, that can be really exciting. The other part is, and maybe because I’m 57 and, you know, I feel fantastic, I’m so thankful for my health, and I just noticed that I want to be really deliberate about how I spend my life force and my effort and energy. 1 of the shortcut metaphors that I’ve been using a lot in describing this work is you think about sometimes some of you might relate as a practitioner you can know that where you show up in a

29:02 – 29:37
Pamela Slim: client engagement, magic happens. Sometimes it actually feels like that, right? You’re pulling from your life experience. You’re feeling it. There are just certain things that you can synthesize from yourself and your experience where you can feel confident that you’re delivering consistently great results, but really all of that magic is coming because you are physically in the room. And that is something over time that can really get tiring and not to be, you know, a wet blanket, but what if anything happens to you? Where like all the magic has to happen for you, a lot of what

29:37 – 30:11
Pamela Slim: we’ve lived through through the pandemic, what about if you get really ill? What if something happens to change your life situation where you’re unable to continue that work? I love to be thinking about ways in which you have specifically done things to get that magic out of your own body in your head and in codified forms of actually a method, a way that other people can use it. And when you begin to really go down that path of having that codified method that then you begin to consistently deliver through certification, it means that your magic actually

30:11 – 30:47
Pamela Slim: lives often in the DNA of other businesses. I think of way back in the day when I was back at Barclays, we had the Franklin Covey planners, just a little tiny example. I remember those. But part of every single new higher orientation was people going through the training class and getting the planner. They had baked into their business operations training and methods that came in this case from from Franklin Peve and that is something that’s amazing on the business side for just the consistent revenue and it also I think is ultimately where you see as a

30:47 – 31:11
Pamela Slim: service provider and the thought leader, it’s very exciting when you can start to see your work really living in the walls of other people. 1 of my friends, Steve Farber, who’s a wonderful author and just a lovely human being, He has a particular method and he said he had 1 client that was so into it and went to his training that when he went to visit them in their office, his stuff, his words, his method were actually like painted on the walls.

31:12 – 31:15
Rochelle Moulton: So I was like. How awesome is that?

31:15 – 31:18
Pamela Slim: Dang, talk about transfer of ownership there, Steve. That’s amazing.

31:18 – 31:44
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. Well, and that’s what I like about this whole conversation is that you can focus on either side of this equation. You can focus saying, I want to build that revenue, right? So if something happens or when I don’t want to do this anymore. I have a revenue stream, but it’s also the impact. It’s that germ, that spark that you leave in somebody else. And for a lot of us, that’s why we do this work.

31:45 – 32:20
Pamela Slim: That’s right. And it is on the continuum. Again, everybody doesn’t have the same desire, but many service businesses that have really been around for a long time see an eventual exit that is involved in a sale. And it absolutely is something that will increase the value of your business, where you not only have really great codified IP, satisfied customer lists, all these other things that contribute to the sale, but where you have built a certification mechanism as part of the business, it can really strengthen your final sale and just make a much stronger case. So it’s,

32:20 – 32:49
Pamela Slim: it is, I’ve interviewed my friend John Warlow, who wrote great books like Built to Sell and The Art of the Sale. Interviewed him on my podcast recently and We just were having a lot of those conversations because that’s his whole world that he works with people to really ensure that if they are selling their business, they get the most value in it. He has his value builder software for looking at those components. But I was just really happy to hear from him. He’s like, It’s all about productized services. It’s all about building these mechanisms in the

32:49 – 33:03
Pamela Slim: bones of the company that by definition don’t mean that Rochelle or Pam have to physically be there in order for the magic to happen. In fact, that can be really seen as a huge detriment to potential acquirers.

33:03 – 33:19
Rochelle Moulton: Yes. I’m convinced I got another 0 on the sale price when I sold my first firm to Arthur Anderson because they wanted RIP. They wanted it so badly and they paid for it. So yeah, I would do that again in a heartbeat.

33:19 – 33:40
Pamela Slim: That’s so amazing and congratulations. It’s just it’s a really rare thing. I’m sure you’ve heard it before, but it’s just so fantastic to hear that you were able to walk through that whole journey and to make it happen, especially to a big consulting firm. Congratulations for doing it. It’s really not a thing to do and it’s really inspiring.

33:41 – 34:07
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, it was a process, I will say that. Pam, how can our listeners tell whether they might be a good candidate for certification or licensing? And is there, if they don’t think they’re a good candidate now, are there, I mean, obviously you’re talking about codifying their processes, but are there other things that they can do to get ready if this is an avenue they’re thinking about pursuing?

34:08 – 34:41
Pamela Slim: For sure. So 1 of the things is just where you educate yourself on just what the journey is. I find for so many conversations I have with people and situations like this on podcasts or just educating people, once people can actually see what’s involved, it can demystify the whole idea of what licensing and certification is, right? So now that you know, okay, you have to have codified elements, a very specific learning process. You need to have a legal agreement in order to, you know, be able to license. It can just demystify it where it is accessible

34:41 – 35:15
Pamela Slim: if you choose to go down that path. And that’s an important part for some people, is just realizing what’s involved. Some people think it’s less complicated, and some people feel like it’s much more complicated. So once they learn about that, it’s helpful. Think about it in general, is it is a more mature business strategy, And from an IP perspective, what we find on the agency side are really our very best clients who are ready, in this case, to hire us to be building the programs with them is where they are doing successful work inside an organization.

35:16 – 35:47
Pamela Slim: And basically, it’s actually a really common thing that they come to us with or like we’re doing this work, we’re kind of stretched then, our client super passionate about the work and they really want to bring in it at scale and they’ve asked us about if we have some kind of an option for licensing or certification. That actually is something that many organizations will do. On 1 hand, to help the work get out to people at scale in their company. The other thing is, if they are paying the individual consultant or that small firm to be

35:47 – 36:19
Pamela Slim: doing all the delivery, it can get really expensive. And so there is a business case and a savings that a company can have where you’re building some of these programs. Again, you can end up getting lots of nice zeros on your check for the licensing and certification, but it should be from a business case perspective, a cheaper investment for the company to be bringing in that work at scale than it would be if they were gonna hire you and your team to be doing like all of the training, right? Or all of the implementation. And that’s

36:19 – 36:51
Pamela Slim: part of what it is that you see the case, that it benefits for scale and for the revenue impact. So in order for that to happen, you do need to make sure that you have had time to really clarify and document and codify your methods or your approach. You’ve had a time to consistently test it and try it, perfect it, build the models, build the things so that consistently over time, you feel good about the fact that, again, if it’s not you making the magic as the thought leader and the person creating it, that really you

36:51 – 37:18
Pamela Slim: can consistently see that other people can start to really understand it besides you. And that, it’s interesting on the personal journey, that can take a little bit. I mean, it’s hard. Some of its ego, some of it’s just like, gosh, how could anybody possibly do it as well as I could do it is sometimes what we tell ourselves. What is very humbling? Sometimes other people can do it better. We can do it. Yes. Yes.

37:19 – 37:47
Rochelle Moulton: And we get so wrapped up in our own way of doing it. I just recorded a podcast episode this morning where I walked through how I had put this very small program together. And when I started, I had no idea if I could teach somebody else how to do it because that’s really what we’re talking about And again, this was a very small little challenge, but it took me the better part of the day just to like convince myself Yes, I can figure out how to teach this I don’t know how to do it yet exactly,

37:47 – 37:54
Rochelle Moulton: but it’s doable. And you kind of have to put your ego aside to really do that. That’s right.

37:54 – 38:22
Pamela Slim: And it is, I agree that 1 of the great things about when you are the creative lead for it is I think where a lot of the magic can come is just when you are cooking up the methodology yourself and you’re really thinking of what are the unique ways that you’re bringing something forth that’s going to be really helpful for the market and it’s just going to save people time and reduce risk and all these things. It’s not discounting the fact that you really came up with a method, but it really takes a conscious shift for

38:22 – 38:51
Pamela Slim: you to sometimes get out of the dopamine hits of being the person who does get the kudos or working directly with people. I love to work directly with clients. It’s a real joy. I know it’s interesting in the last couple of years since we’ve really activated more the agency side of the business. I’ve done for years tons of advising of people of just being a business coach and advisor to be giving them advice about building certification programs. When we decided that for some of them it was actually much easier to have the hands-on support for us

38:51 – 39:24
Pamela Slim: to do the majority of the work rather than coach them from it, it took me just about a few minutes, maybe 1 month, to get used to the idea that my team is so much better at the design and the implementation than I am that it like skyrocketed my joy. Like to the point where I realized when I’m in not the sales calls with clients, but When I’m in the implementation calls with clients, I’m more likely am going to screw it up because I get my little creative cap on of like, oh yeah, we can deviate

39:24 – 39:54
Pamela Slim: from our process. Like, let’s explore this whole new idea. And my team is like blaring at me trying not to make it obvious through Zoom because they just have, when they’re really in those right places, in the case the team I have, which I feel so blessed to have, they just know so deeply what it is that they’re doing and they have those complementary skills that the work gets done better and more effectively with other people. So like getting over that hump can be humbling, it can be joyful, and it can be difficult to find the

39:54 – 40:30
Pamela Slim: right people in order to be building that trust. But just like we talked about in building and codifying your IP for what the methods are themselves and just whatever your models and your methods are, the same exact thing is true when we talk about productizing services is where you absolutely need to be building in this infrastructure where you have a solid, repeatable, efficient process in the way in which you get the work done. And I feel like these things just come hand in hand with really deliberate operations, matched by exceptional IP that makes it easier to

40:30 – 40:36
Pamela Slim: sell out in the market. Couldn’t agree more with all of that. Now here’s the next thing, though.

40:36 – 41:05
Rochelle Moulton: In the examples you talked about, there were somebody is feeling maxed out. But you do talk elsewhere about needing a marketing engine to drive sales of a certification or licensing program. And, you know, intuitively that makes sense, right? So what different ways have you seen soloists, especially soloists build this marketing engine and how much of that needs to be in place before they develop the program versus they start to build it after?

41:06 – 41:42
Pamela Slim: It definitely depends who their ideal clients are. So in a B2B situation, depending upon what your own goals are financially, that let’s say your clients are much larger, whatever, Fortune 100 clients or something like that, you could have a very successful, according to your terms, licensing certification program that’s maybe zeroing in on 2 or 3 corporate clients where when there’s a large pool of people, it definitely can take some time in the sales side in order to make the connection, but you could have a super healthy business. Again, if you’ve been working with maybe fewer clients

41:42 – 42:18
Pamela Slim: but doing deeper implementation, that kind of marketing and engagement is more about the ways that you’re making your approach and your thought leadership visible. In all the 10 years that I did corporate consulting, a lot of that is what are ways you’re making sure you’re not only building relationships with your direct client, which might be the person that’s hiring you, sometimes more from maybe the middle of the organization to do a project, but you’re deliberately taking time to really get to know the other players. You’re having conversations proactively with other people in the organization. I did

42:18 – 42:49
Pamela Slim: a lot of work as a consultant, for example, where I might be working to, like, you know, build a new hire orientation program for a company, or I did a lot of building of management development programs for like Charles Schwab, you know, large companies. So I might be working with my main client in the organization, but then a lot of the materials that I would develop, like helping to increase their capacity and their success, would be helping them to be sharing up with the higher echelons of the organization, the work that was being done, the impact

42:49 – 43:21
Pamela Slim: of that work. And I always want more as a consultant or a coach to be highlighting the leadership, having my clients be the superstars that are there, right? I feel like that’s the role. And when you are more known and if where you do develop that comfort level of being able to be in C level conversations Sometimes you’re brought into those conversations where when people see how you’re operating and what you’re building it helps with that case of you know wanting to be sharing sharing the work with other people in the workplace. So on the B2B

43:21 – 43:54
Pamela Slim: side, there can be specific engagement, thought leadership that you can be doing even inside of a smaller pool of companies. There’s also things that I think you can do to stand out on LinkedIn of really like sharing your expertise within a particular area where you don’t have to have a huge audience, but you do want to be very specific and specialized so that people know, oh, okay, when we’re talking about like how to train people on AI for customer service agents or whatever that specialty is, that people really know that you’re the person and you’re consistently

43:55 – 44:24
Pamela Slim: communicating it. So you have to know who is your audience, where are they hanging out? This is a lot of the work from my latest book, The Widest Net, how are you identifying the watering holes where you can be in front of the right people? So that’s in the B2B side. On the B2C side, which is where I do spend a lot of time sometimes encouraging people to think twice before they create a B2C offering, like I have a great method and I’m a consultant, so let me certify other consultants to use my method, for example.

44:25 – 44:56
Pamela Slim: This is where, if you wanna be building that audience, you see something like Jonathan Fields has done with Sparketype, where the specific model is to have a free assessment with any of you can go to Sparketype, just Google it, and you can go take a free assessment where you can get some initial information back about what your Sparketype is, super cool tool. Then you could go deeper. I think if he still has it in place, there’s like maybe a more detailed report that you can get by investing as an individual. But in this case, with Jonathan

44:56 – 45:29
Pamela Slim: knowing the long term picture for him was more in developing a much bigger audience for the tool, which eventually led to the book deal for the book Sparked, which is all about sparketypes. That is a way that you can at scale, you know, usually build something that people can be getting for free, you know, is a way in which they’re they’re accessing the information So I mean like Sally hogshead from how to fascinate It’s another example somebody who’s built a big I’ve known Sally for years the huge body of work And now it’s probably over millions

45:29 – 46:06
Pamela Slim: of people who have taken, you know her particular assessments Gretchen Rubin, right? You notice for happiness books the 4 tendencies, you know the happiness project Those are ways that you often see more individual authors or thought leaders. Dan Pink, I think, did a big survey and a tool about regret. Those are all the ways in which you’re building that audience. But it is, I think it by definition, unless you’re just an amazing marketer and you really understand the B2C market, you have to build so many more connections to make the same money as you might make

46:06 – 46:40
Pamela Slim: in B2B. And I’m not trying to be simplistic, like believe me, I know how hard it is to make money in any market. So It has to make sense for you and I never would encourage people if they feel like drawn and excited by the B2C world to, you know, to lean into it, but just realize that it takes a lot of time. I’ve been in this space, what are we now, 2023, maybe like 18 years that I’ve been really building more B2C relationships, you know, like as an individual thought leader with entrepreneurs. And, you know,

46:40 – 46:54
Pamela Slim: even so, I work hard when I’m trying to fill my programs, right? I still have to market like the rest of folks. I don’t just like send out 1 email and all of a sudden get enough money to, you know, keep my kids well fed and tuition paid for

46:54 – 46:56
Rochelle Moulton: a year. It’s not

46:56 – 47:00
Pamela Slim: just magic. I wish. I think I’m just doing it wrong. But you know,

47:01 – 47:35
Rochelle Moulton: What I really like about that message is you don’t have to have a cast of hundreds of thousands or an email list of thousands and thousands and thousands if you are the person, if you are clearly recognized as the authority or 1 of the leading authorities in this thing that you do or in this niche that you play in. And I think that’s really helpful to people, especially when you’re just getting started. Because the last thing you want to worry about is how many people are in your audience. You’re focusing on how can I do the

47:35 – 47:43
Rochelle Moulton: best work for the kind of people that I want to serve and then grow into some of this? So I feel like that’s a really positive message.

47:43 – 48:11
Pamela Slim: Yeah. I think just to be really deliberate about the markets that you’re going in. And I know how overwhelming it is for people. We often get all of these mixed messages. I see it a lot coming at people who, for example, they might be more in the B2C world where they’re really marketing to individuals or solopreneurs. And somebody is like, hey, you should get the big bucks in corporate, you know, let’s just put together an offering. And they’re like, oh yeah, that’s easy. And you just realize it’s like this huge ship. Anybody who’s sold that way

48:11 – 48:42
Pamela Slim: is like, oh, it ain’t easy. It takes a long time, vice versa. You can have a quite successful consulting practice in the B2B world and somebody’s like, oh, just create an online class. You’re gonna print money as you sleep. And if anybody who’s ever done that knows, oh my gosh, huge amount of time, energy, investment, and then sometimes you have to build big product funnels, all of these ways that you’re consistently getting in front of people. So there’s no magic bullet. That said, I feel like I’m a little bit negative Nellie, like don’t do anything ever.

48:42 – 49:13
Pamela Slim: Just you know, I don’t mean that. There’s so much excitement in each of those areas, but you want to have some deliberate analysis Before you go in and I like to think about it from a path if we think 3 to 5 years forward Are there spaces do we have a business model where for example if you’ve really made traction and you like to be in a B2B space, what are ways you can just lean in and make that more effective? And then sometimes you can really see a leap with something like a certification, as opposed

49:13 – 49:27
Pamela Slim: to having all of these different, often disconnected offerings, right? You have this little program and you have a certification over here for independent consultants and then you have your corporate consulting. That’s the part that can start to get really fragmented.

49:29 – 49:38
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I feel like there’s 3 words that come to mind with the sort of tie in everything I’ve heard you say today that I’d like to remember. I bet others would too. 1 is deliberate.

49:39 – 49:39
Pamela Slim: The

49:39 – 49:49
Rochelle Moulton: other is codified. And I guess the other thing you didn’t use this word, but it keeps coming to mind is strategic. I mean, that’s basically what you’re saying is think about this strategically versus tactically.

49:50 – 50:24
Pamela Slim: I love that. Yes, actually, my 2 words for 2024, deliberate focus, because I find for myself that’s just where I am. I’m finding huge joy in really focusing in this area of certification, but it’s also part of what I’m seeing in just the way in which the market is moving with all of the thought leaders that I’m working with is, whereas it’s always been important to specialize, I think with some of the market dynamics that we’re seeing, it’s just really not possible to be cutting through and to be getting success if we are running in, you

50:24 – 50:57
Pamela Slim: know, 10 different directions. Strategically, just the way the market listens to us, it’s just harder to make sales and get traction. And then also on the personal energy side, it can just be really exhausting to try to be doing everything. I have 1 of our clients, we did some work in certification with Joshua Becker, who’s at Becoming Minimalist. I would always laugh because when we do, we’d be doing Zoom calls with him for planning the workaround certification, because he has a really wonderful certification for a lot of, let’s say, professional organizers whose clients might wanna go

50:57 – 51:32
Pamela Slim: for a more minimalist aesthetic. Kind of cool, right? It’s just like extra thing that you can have that allows people to be doing it. And so him, of course, he was in his 1 black t-shirt with a clear background. And then here I am in this wild turquoise walls, art everywhere, like a lab that’s probably the most maximalist environment. It would just crack me up. But there’s the things I appreciate so much about Joshua’s body of work and some of my minimalist friends is there really is a piece at looking at really the essence where you

51:32 – 51:50
Pamela Slim: can just strip everything away for a moment and just say of all the things that I’m doing Is there a rich area where if I just put more specific focus in it? It really has the opportunity to scale and I just think that’s a healthy thing on the business side. And I think it’s a healthy thing on the personal side.

51:52 – 52:07
Rochelle Moulton: Hear, hear. Well, Pam, just 1 more question that I love to ask everybody. And I’m learning something new every time. If You could go back to who you were when you first started your business. What’s the 1 thing you’d advise her to do?

52:09 – 52:48
Pamela Slim: It’s such an interesting question because here’s where it goes against my like paradoxically my theory of change and maybe even spiritual orientation. Have I made 12, 000 mistakes? Yes. Could there be ways that I would have made more impact and more money if I made different decisions? Yes. But I’m so deeply grateful and excited for where I am presently that, you know, like you watch those movies of like, if somebody had, I don’t know, what is it like your wonderful life or any of those movies, right? Where you kind of can go back and like rewind

52:48 – 53:17
Pamela Slim: if you could make a change to do something different, I never would trade the experience and the perspective I have now for anything. And I don’t know if I could have gotten it had I not walked through a number of different experiences. So that’s a premise. It could be wildly inaccurate. So I just wanted to say that for the record from my theory of change of like, that’s part of what I think has just really helped me to be the person I am and the practitioner I am is because of what I’ve walked through. I think

53:17 – 53:49
Pamela Slim: a couple of things that probably I could have cut short some of the like suffering or gotten the benefits on the upside is in honoring the fact that I learned through lots of work that I did with individuals. Like by definition I’m more of a like multi-passionate person you know I have so many different interests I hate to be like bound in and I really thrive in exploring ideas and really being the creator of ideas I have this weird ability I in some ways to like predict the future. You know, Escape from Cubicle Nation came out

53:49 – 54:20
Pamela Slim: in 2009. Then in 2022, 21, we’re talking about, you know, the great resignation. I feel like there’s just part of the way I’m oriented where I can see trends for the future and I can see them beforehand. And I do feel good about the way I can codify things in terms of like books or programs. I think I let a little bit of my like joy of creation not allow me to really give the focus and attention in helping support some of those different chapters in my body of work to get out in a deeper way,

54:20 – 54:52
Pamela Slim: right? So maybe I would, you know, create, be excited to create a book, have programs that came out, I might run it like 1 rotation or 2, and then I would just kind of get bored and I would just like let it sit on the hard drive, which is not really smart. There’s a lot of more, you know, value that’s built had I been more deliberate and focused on maybe doing things like having certification or allowing other people, you know, to take that that kind of IP. So that those probably would be areas where just sometimes

54:52 – 55:08
Pamela Slim: I look back, I don’t know how you are, but now 28 years in business, I’m like, oh my God, I have created so many things. I should be prohibited from ever creating anything new. I should just go back and harvest all that stuff for the rest of my life. Just look at

55:08 – 55:15
Rochelle Moulton: the file folders on your hard drive. I mean, that’s what I can tell you my history from just reading the file folder names. Yeah.

55:15 – 55:16
Pamela Slim: Exactly. So

55:16 – 55:32
Rochelle Moulton: I like that underlying message too about being grateful for the path, basically for whatever life throws at you while you’re growing your business. I think that’s that’s a really healthy spiritual way to think about challenges and suffering too.

55:32 – 55:58
Pamela Slim: Well, I always throw in martial art metaphors because I did Capoeira for so long, the Afro-Brazilian martial art for 11 years. And then I did MMA, mixed martial arts, for 5 years in my 40s. And 1 of the things I just noticed from that particular kind of craft is I would notice always people that might come in on the first day of class and they would see like you know the black belts are in Capoeira, the you know the red belts, the people who were advanced like doing back flips and doing all this stuff and I

55:58 – 56:26
Pamela Slim: always noticed the difference between folks who would just like want to skip all the steps and they would just be like I want to do that. As opposed to people who really were in it more for the craft where they were like let me learn the foundation. And I found sometimes it was people who might have even come from other martial arts where they had the respect to know that everything is about the foundation and when you’re spending time over time to be building your body of work, part of those lessons and those experience of not

56:26 – 57:02
Pamela Slim: only learning in the case of martial arts of like the physical moves that you can get better and better at, but it’s also your emotional capacity to be dealing with frustration when somebody is smashing your face in the ground again on the mat. Sometimes the spiritual practice that you develop over time of being able to really sustain, a sustained practice, a deep understanding of dealing with paradox sometimes that you have when you’re at a high level of practicing anything. So it is why I probably eschew and I get judgy, but sometimes hopefully to myself most of

57:02 – 57:31
Pamela Slim: the time, about just all the like instant success or you know, like certification in a box. You know, you just started your business like, hey, you can sell a bunch of certifications, just do it. Usually what happens is kind of that equivalent, right, in the martial arts side of sometimes in the short term maybe you get all the financial benefits but usually that’s where things can start to collapse. You know you see the market shift all of a sudden people might look under the hood and realize that this is a method that’s really not been tested

57:31 – 58:04
Pamela Slim: over time and you don’t have that experience of really the emotional, physical, and spiritual fortitude to be able to really handle where you are when success hits. So I am fully ready for gigantic checks to fall from the sky at this point, probably when I’m maybe 71. You know, like, here you go. But I think at that point, I will be well capable of, like, receiving it all. And, you know, I have been well taken care of and so proud of, like, the work I’ve done and the impact that I’ve had with my clients. There’s not

58:04 – 58:35
Pamela Slim: regrets that way. But my wish always for everybody in work is that you can really find, you can have your eyes open to really the true path of being dedicated to a craft and creating really transformational work and honoring what it takes to do that. And at the same time, learning how to do it efficiently so that you’re not wasting effort. You’re not spending energy being scattered and you can have the ease of knowing that you’re working consistently on a plan. That kind of joy is 1 that I just wish for everybody.

58:37 – 58:59
Rochelle Moulton: Mic drop, mic drop. So Pam, we’ll be putting all sorts of links to you and your content in the show notes. And I wanna point out, you’ve got a great video about what we’re talking about, and I encourage people to watch that. It’s about an hour long, but packed with information. So consider that. But where’s the best place for people to learn more

59:00 – 59:25
Pamela Slim: about you? PamelaSlim.com. Well, that’s easy. Yeah. And then LinkedIn is probably my preferred place to connect. So feel free to reach out and just mention that you heard me on the show. And I’d love to connect over there. I just started a brand new newsletter last week called Smart IP, where I’m specifically talking about every week issues related to all of these topics. So feel free to connect over there and subscribe to that newsletter as well.

59:26 – 59:44
Rochelle Moulton: Well, Pam, thank you so much. I mean, I just I feel like you’re everywhere lately. I keep reading about you here, there, everywhere. You’ve been a really generous professional in so many different ways over a number of years and you’ve been very generous today. So thank you.

59:44 – 59:45
Pamela Slim: Thanks for having me.

59:45 – 59:59
Rochelle Moulton: Okay, so before we say goodbye today, if you’re looking to connect with like-minded women working in the B2B space, be sure to check out the link to my soloist women community in the show notes. It’s at RochelleMoulton.com slash soloist.com.

01:00:01 – 01:00:04
Speaker 1: That’s it for this episode. I hope you’ll join us.