Embracing Neurodiversity with Diann Wingert
Does your brain seem to work differently than those around you—maybe you even went solo so you could operate at your best? Coach (and former psychotherapist) Diann Wingert shares her experience advising the neurodiverse:
Neurodiversity—what it is, why it’s a spectrum and how experts look at it today (hint: don’t think of it as a disorder).
Why so many neurodiverse people become entrepreneurs—and serial entrepreneurs.
The signs you might be on the ADHD spectrum (and what to do with that if you are).
How understanding the unique challenges and opportunities of how your brain works plays into the design and success of your Soloist business.
Why radical self-acceptance—whether you’re neurodiverse or not—is the way to go.
LINKS
Diann Wingert Shiny Objects | LinkedIn | Instagram
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
After a twenty-year career as a psychotherapist and mental health administrator, Diann pivoted into business strategy and coaching for neurodivergent entrepreneurs. Her passion is helping those who think differently build a profitable, sought-after business based on their unique brilliance.
Diann has extensive experience working with neurodivergent individuals, especially those who are gifted, ADHD, or both. On the personal side, Diann loves dark fiction, strong coffee, and laughing out loud. She is also a Peloton enthusiast, practicing Buddhist, and host of the newly re-branded ADHD-ish podcast.
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TRANSCRIPT
00:00 – 00:25
Diann Wingert: Understanding, oh, there is a name for my difference. I am actually neurodivergent. I’ve always known I was different. And trust me, if you’re listening to my voice and you are neurodivergent, You’ve always known it. We know we’re different, but if we don’t know why, what most people do is go to shame.
00:30 – 00:45
Rochelle Moulton: MUSIC Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we’re all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I’m Rochelle Moulton and today I’m so happy to welcome my new pal, the incomparable Diann Wingert.
00:45 – 00:47
Diann Wingert: That’s a great intro.
00:48 – 01:35
Rochelle Moulton: Well, wait, there’s more. So after a 20-year career as a psychotherapist and mental health administrator, Diane pivoted into business strategy and coaching for neurodivergent entrepreneurs. Her passion is helping those who think differently build a profitable, sought after business based on their unique brilliance. And Diane has extensive experience working with neurodivergent individuals, especially those who are gifted, ADHD, or both. On the personal side, she loves dark fiction, strong coffee, and laughing out loud. She’s also a Peloton enthusiast, practicing Buddhist, and host of the newly rebranded ADHD-ish podcast. Diane, welcome.
01:35 – 01:37
Diann Wingert: I’m so excited to have this conversation.
01:38 – 02:01
Rochelle Moulton: Well so am I. So let’s just dive right in. And I first just want to understand, do you identify as a soloist yourself? I certainly do and proudly so. Yay. So what made you pivot from psychotherapy to coaching? I mean, there’s some, you know, you could make some logical reasons why, but it really is a different way of operating. What made you go there? It’s a really great question and
02:01 – 02:34
Diann Wingert: I love being asked it. On a practical note, my husband was interviewing for another job, which meant we were probably going to leave the state, if not the country, and you may or may not know that a therapy license is only good in the state you’re in. But there was something going on with me personally, which is the bigger, deeper, and I think more important reason. I had outgrown the role of being a therapist. I wanted to be more directive. I wanted to help people move forward at a faster pace. And I was ready to work
02:34 – 03:15
Diann Wingert: with people who had done the work of healing and developing insight and were now wanting to move into growth, change and reaching their highest potential. So I knew that was no longer a therapy role. And I had also been a serial business owner, and I wanted to bring my 2 skill sets together as what I like to refer to as a psychologically savvy business coach. Because if you work with soloists and you know this, the business can only be as successful as the business owner is healthy, mentally, physically, spiritually. So I like to work with the
03:15 – 03:19
Diann Wingert: whole person so that both they and their business can thrive.
03:19 – 03:39
Rochelle Moulton: Oh, preaching. I know. You preaching. I know. Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So, I want to talk about neurodivergence. I still have the worst time saying that word. So define it for us and is there a spectrum that we should be aware of? Like how is this being discussed now? I feel like it changes moment by moment.
03:39 – 04:16
Diann Wingert: No lie. In fact, it’s a really hot topic that it seems like came from out of nowhere and is suddenly on everybody’s lips. So I’m going to talk about neurodivergence and neurodiversity because you’re going to hear both. And I have a friend who’s in the field who gets really upset when people get them confused. So I’m going to try to set the record straight. Neurodiversity means simply this, differences in the way people’s brains work. The notion that there’s no 1 right way for a brain to work really flies in the face of the psychiatric model, the
04:16 – 04:56
Diann Wingert: medical model, and the DSM, which I was a practitioner of for many years as a therapist. This notion that there’s a right way for things to be and a wrong way, neurodiversity honors the fact that different brains work differently, and there’s no 1 correct way. So neurodiversity means there’s a range of ways that people perceive and respond to the world around them at that these differences can be embraced and even encouraged. Now neurodivergence means that you diverge from the norm. So we’re kind of moving away from norms and calling it typical. So there are, instead of
04:56 – 05:28
Diann Wingert: saying, well, this is normal and this is abnormal, and I sat through so many courses in abnormal psychology, But if you embrace a diversity model and think, okay, there’s different ways for people’s brains to work, and by the way, it’s not just brains, it’s nervous system too, and that includes the emotions. If that’s the way we’re thinking now, then instead of normal and abnormal, we are talking about typical and atypical, neurotypical and neurodivergent. Does that
05:28 – 05:29
Rochelle Moulton: help? Yeah.
05:29 – 05:30
Diann Wingert: And I just
05:30 – 05:47
Rochelle Moulton: want to embrace the neurodiversity term. Like, I just love that because it just flies with everything else that I think about the world right now in terms of how we need to understand that everybody’s not like us. Exactly. And just to add how your brain works as another form of diversity, I think, is
05:47 – 06:28
Diann Wingert: a really powerful way to think about it. Well, how your brain works, Rochelle, how your brain perceives self and others, how your brain perceives and responds to and interacts with the environment, This influences and affects everything. And it starts from birth because babies who are born to be neurodivergent are going to behave differently. They may be harder to soothe. They may be more irritable. They may be more excitable. They may be more active. They may be more passive. There’s so many different ways that they may be different from babies that are developing typically, and it’s why
06:29 – 07:06
Diann Wingert: conditions like autism and ADHD are still in the psychiatric manual and are still considered to be a form of neurodevelopmental disorders. But if we practice what I like to call radical self-acceptance, It’s this is who I am, this is how I am. I might as well work with the brain and nervous system that I have instead of trying to conform to the norm and do so unsuccessfully. That’s where I think the symptoms come from that most of us try to mask, hide, or medicate.
07:07 – 07:36
Rochelle Moulton: Yes. And I feel like that’s what I keep reading about. Is it just my imagination or are more adults being diagnosed as, let’s call it, neurodiverse right now? I mean, I think LinkedIn is a good example where so many people in my circle are already all of a sudden coming out, if you will, saying, hey, I’ve been diagnosed as this and it explains so much about my life and my experiences up to this point. So is this just happening more often now? Like what’s happening?
07:37 – 08:14
Diann Wingert: It’s not your imagination. It’s like slug bug, okay? Or when we don’t look for something, we don’t find it. And that’s 1 of the things I say over and over and over. There’s so many generations of adults, most especially women who are realizing it midlife or later, some of them younger, some in their 20s and 30s, especially if they’re on TikTok because there’s a lot of creators. And, you know, God bless them. Like, there’s so many people who are kind of what I call falling into these diagnostic categories by recognizing themselves on TikTok because there are
08:14 – 08:49
Diann Wingert: creators who are saying, hey, you may be autistic if or these are signs that you have ADHD. And while they’re not professionally trained, most of them, and while, you know, nobody should be trying to diagnose people off social media or the internet, if you can help people see who they are and point them in the direction of learning more, I don’t think there’s any way that can be a bad thing. And frankly, in my opinion, and 1 of the reasons why I have rebranded my podcast ADHD-ish is that after many years of having the legal right
08:49 – 09:20
Diann Wingert: and responsibility and privilege even of diagnosing people with various mental disorders, I no longer think it’s necessary or even beneficial for many people to choose that Because understanding who you are, understanding literally how you tick, what lights your brain up like a Christmas tree with dopamine, and what makes you feel like you just need to take a very long nap, These are the things that are important, not what diagnostic category you fit in or
09:20 – 09:51
Rochelle Moulton: how many symptoms you can check off the list. You know, I just, you can’t see me, I’m bowing down right now. Because It’s really a shift from viewing anything that’s not typical as abnormal or a disease, disorder disease. And I just don’t know how that’s helpful in a situation where there isn’t a prescribed thing to do, right? A medically prescribed thing to do. Or even if there is Rochelle, because here’s the thing,
09:51 – 10:21
Diann Wingert: you know, a lot of people, and to your point when you say people are coming out with their, and that’s the term I use to because a lot of my friends are queer, but it’s like coming out with your ADHD or your autism or you might have heard of AudiHD, which is people that are realizing, oh, actually, I’m both ADHD and autistic. So they’ve combined the 2. Some people don’t like any of those medically-oriented diagnostic labels, So they come up with clever ones like NeuroSpicy, which I think is great.
10:21 – 10:22
Rochelle Moulton: I’ve heard that 1.
10:22 – 11:01
Diann Wingert: I love that 1. Yeah. I love it. And here’s the thing. I think for many people understanding, Oh, there is a name for my difference. I am actually neurodivergent. I’ve always known I was different. And trust me, if you’re listening to my voice and you are neurodivergent, you’ve always known it. You may not have known what to call it. You may have had to deal with other people’s labels and feedback, because trust me, you’ve got labels even if you don’t have a diagnostic 1. People think of themselves as spacey. They think of themselves as scattered. All
11:01 – 11:44
Diann Wingert: the jokes about squirrel and rabbit holes and all that. We know we’re different, but if we don’t know why, what most people do is go to shame. Shame. Because, Let’s face it, we are living in a world, by and large, that is made by and for the benefit of neuro-typical people, people who think in the typical way. And because all the systems were built by and for them, because they are neuro-normative, We try to fit our square peg into their round hole and it’s either really tight, really uncomfortable, we just simply can’t do it and we
11:44 – 12:08
Diann Wingert: opt out, which by the way is 1 of many reasons why so many of us become self-employed soloists. We don’t want to go to meetings. We don’t want to have arbitrary bureaucratic rules that make no sense to us. We want to explore and express our own creativity. We want to do things our way because we’ve tried to do it their way and it just wasn’t a good time.
12:08 – 12:26
Rochelle Moulton: Amen. So, I mean, you’ve alluded to this, but let’s get into this. So, if a listener has not been diagnosed with some form of neurodiversity or ADHD specifically, what are some signs that they might be? I wish we still had our cameras on.
12:28 – 13:01
Diann Wingert: When I was still a therapist, Many, many people came to me with diagnoses of anxiety, depression, both often, eating disorders, adjustment disorders. Some people were told they’re bipolar, they’re borderline. And once I started to get to know them, I thought, you know, is there any possibility that you could be ADHD? And of course, their jaw drops and they’re like, why would you say that? I’m like, well, I’ll tell you what, let’s just make this a fun experiment. I’m gonna get out the manual and I’m gonna read you a list of things and every 1 of them
13:01 – 13:40
Diann Wingert: that applies to you most of the time and has across your lifespan, just put up a finger. By the time they’ve run out of fingers and we start having them take off their shoes, they get my point. Let’s play along as the audience. Let’s do it. Let’s play along. Good, good, let’s play along. Okay, now let me put in a caveat. The term neurodiversity or neurodivergence applies to a wide variety of brain-based differences, including, but not limited to, autism, ADHD, OCD, giftedness, specific learning disabilities. And because this is a relatively new and expanding field I’m sure
13:41 – 14:11
Diann Wingert: the list is going to be expanded over time because there are just so many different ways that people think, feel, and do things differently than the typical norms. So my expertise is in ADHD and in giftedness. So if it’s okay, I’d like to just stick to the symptoms of ADHD because I don’t think we have enough time to do all of the different lists. Okay? Let’s do it. I’m not going to give them to you straight from the DSM because I choose not to use that anymore. I’m going to give them to you from like real
14:11 – 14:25
Diann Wingert: life, real things you would like, oh, I do that. Because if they’re in clinical terminology, sometimes we go, I don’t really relate to that. So are you ready? Ready. Okay. And you don’t have to yell out yay or nay.
14:25 – 14:28
Rochelle Moulton: I’m going to keep some hash marks, so I’ll be honest when we’re done.
14:28 – 14:57
Diann Wingert: Girl, this could get cringy really fast, you know. And I actually also want people listening if they’re not trying to drive a car, feed a baby or lift heavy machinery, like you can play along too. So here we go. We don’t say yes or no, I’m just gonna go through the list. Okay, if you do this often and you always have, because by the way, there’s no such thing as adult onset neurodivergence. If you are this way, you have always been this way. And it’s something I cannot stress enough because a lot of people are like,
14:57 – 15:35
Diann Wingert: I became this way. Let me tell you this. If you are ADHD, you always have been, but it’s possible that you had the safety structure, systems, and supports necessary to keep you functioning like a neurotypical person. Once you become a soloist and you remove yourself from those structures and supports, and then you suddenly find, oh my God, I think I’m ADHD. You always were, you just had workarounds and things that kind of kept you, you know, more organized and focused and so forth. So starting with this 1, 1 of my favorites, because I am very guilty
15:35 – 16:17
Diann Wingert: of this, interrupting others. And I’m just going to run quickly through so it doesn’t get boring, because boredom is a life threatening condition. If you have ADHD. Interrupting others, easily distracted, forgetful, difficulty organizing tasks or possessions, Trouble staying seated. So you might not get up, you might fidget. Difficulty engaging in something quietly. Fidgeting or squirming. Trouble taking your turn. Like I’m terrible for playing games because I interrupt people, I start playing for the other side, it’s terrible. Inability to focus or priority unless you’re doing something you really, really like in which case you hyper-focus and you
16:17 – 17:04
Diann Wingert: forget everything else that isn’t what’s right in front of you. Feeling restless. Difficulty managing time. You either don’t think you have enough time or you take on more than you have time to do. Trouble with impulsivity, impatience, trouble taking your turn when listening in conversations, being inattentive, low frustration tolerance, making careless mistakes, talking excessively, Unless you’re a podcaster, in which case it’s cool. Trouble completing tasks because you’re wildly enthusiastic at the beginning, but somewhere along the line you either lose interest, get distracted, or decide to do something else. Difficulty regulating your emotions, whether that’s like laughing
17:05 – 17:47
Diann Wingert: too loud in a movie and people are telling you to shush or when you get upset, you get really upset. Executive functioning difficulties, that’s planning, prioritizing, sequencing, estimating, putting things in the right order, failure to complete what you start, and difficulty doing something that you find boring, tedious, arbitrary, unnecessary, or you just really can’t will yourself to do it with any amount of bribing. So there are more, but those are like the key ones. And in my experience, the vast majority of entrepreneurial people have many, if not most of these, as do creatives, empaths and independent
17:47 – 17:56
Diann Wingert: thinkers, ambitious outliers, just folks that don’t neatly conform to the norm, you probably have a few fingers waving in the air right about now.
17:56 – 18:21
Rochelle Moulton: Awesome. I actually lost track of how many fingers, because I was trying to jot down some of them at the same time. And so I found myself at the beginning of your list and at the end of the list, but not in the middle. Uh-huh, interesting. In other words, I’m very organized. I can plan like Nobody’s business. I am forgetful. I hate doing anything that bores me.
18:21 – 18:22
Diann Wingert: Mm-hmm.
18:22 – 18:48
Rochelle Moulton: I, you know, and there’s a lot of things I start that I don’t finish, although I finish quite a few. But if something just leaves me in the middle, I’ll just stop it. I have no trouble with that. And anything that’s arbitrary, authority, you know, because somebody said so, I actively resist. I think of myself as a maverick in that way, but I’m not the organizing. So I don’t know what that means. But Well, what it means,
18:48 – 19:23
Diann Wingert: what it means is this. What it means is this. And I think it’s 1 of the reasons why I still believe, even though more and more people are coming to the understanding that they are ADHD, you can either say have ADHD or are ADHD. I throw caution on becoming overly identified with it because while I understand when you first find out, figure it out, or stumble across the information, it can feel like such a life-changing transformational moment where everything before was like before I got diagnosed and after. But I think there’s a lot of people that
19:23 – 20:05
Diann Wingert: really glamorize it and create such expectations that once you get your diagnosis or even once you figure out this is how you are, everything’s going to change. We tend to be people, those of us with ADHD, tend to be very idealistic, very much into like social justice and honesty. And I just think that this notion that all you need to do is figure out if this is you and it’s a total game changer, I think it can be. I think it can be an incredible source of relief that, oh, my brain and nervous system actually work
20:05 – 20:46
Diann Wingert: different. I’m not lazy, crazy, unmotivated, stupid, careless. Like, I am these things for a reason. And it’s not that it’s not your fault, it’s that it’s your responsibility and I think an opportunity to figure out, okay, like there’s some really, really cool traits, whether you’re autistic, you’re ADHD, you have OCD, Like there are some really freaking cool traits and abilities that are mixed in with some that are inconvenient, annoying, and frankly make you want to tear your hair out. And I think it’s an opportunity to be like, okay, like, how do I make the most of
20:46 – 20:55
Diann Wingert: what I’ve got going on here, like dial up the cool parts and dial down the parts that get in my way, just like anyone else.
20:55 – 21:28
Rochelle Moulton: Well, and that’s where I want to go. I think this is true generally in therapy is that someone can be overly attached to a diagnosis to the point where it becomes an excuse not to do something else. But what I love, and maybe this is what we could talk about too, is if you can walk us through a challenge or 2 that an ADHD person might have, And then how can we, as soloists, how can we design our work or our lives to make it work for us, maybe even turn it into a superpower?
21:28 – 22:02
Diann Wingert: Okay, I just have to tell you, I have issues with the term super power. I’m just going to be straight up here. And the reason why, and I’ll tell you why, and it’s not because of the way you use it, Rochelle. Like I’m totally aligned with the fact that sometimes the thing that we’ve been trying to hide or mask or manage, if we actually radically accepted it and embraced it, could actually be our unfair advantage, could actually be the thing that sets us apart and makes us stand out and be sought after and profitable and all
22:02 – 22:44
Diann Wingert: the things. But what I’m reacting to, what I’m objecting to, is that there are really 2 big camps in the ADHD world. 1 camp is like, folks, this is a serious problem. This is a disability. I mean, just look at the terms. Deficit and disorder are right in the title. You might go to prison. You might be a prostitute. You might get on drugs. Yes, there are some people with unidentified ADHD who have extremely bad outcomes. There’s also quite a few very successful creatives, CEOs, entrepreneurs, and consultants. The difference is understanding what makes your chili cook
22:44 – 23:22
Diann Wingert: and what makes your pot boil over. And what I mean by this is that we are dopamine-driven beings. It’s all about the dopamine. Dopamine is not only a feel-good chemistry that our body makes, our brain makes, but it is what helps us persist at whatever we’re doing. So I have a term ADHD inertia. And by that I mean, you know, like a body at rest remains at rest and a body in motion remains in motion. So knowing where you get your sources of dopamine from, the most reliable, rapid way, the most sustainable way, so that you
23:22 – 24:00
Diann Wingert: can orchestrate that into your habits, into your workflows, into the way you structure your work, the people you work with. This is what I do. I help people who have brains that work differently right size their business to fit their life instead of take over their life. And we get granular. It’s like, What gets you focused, fired up, and flame retardant? What do you do to avert boredom? What do you do when you get halfway into a project and you are like, oh my God, just kill me now, I can’t do this for 1 more minute.
24:00 – 24:40
Diann Wingert: Can we salvage that project? How do we do that? It’s like hacking your brain and becoming an expert at where you get your dopamine from and also what you need to avoid. Like for example, some people are highly, highly sensitive. They get overstimulated by their environment. They need to work in a quiet place to do their creative work. Other people need to go in a noisy AF coffee shop with no noise-canceling headphones because that amount of stimulation is actually going to unleash their focus and creativity. And everybody’s different. Like you said, you have some from the
24:40 – 25:12
Diann Wingert: beginning of the list and some from the end of the list, but the middle of the list is not you. It’s 1 of the reason why people are still so confused about ADHD because it doesn’t show up the same in each of us. I have donated my ADHD to all 3 of my adult children. And because they’re from 2 different marriages, I am the common denominator and these are some potent ADHD genes because there are 3 different ADHD Subtypes and I have 1 kid in each of the subtypes. So just like getting to know how do
25:12 – 25:50
Diann Wingert: I need to structure my day? How do I need to structure my week? It goes beyond like batching and time blocking. That’s all good and fine, but knowing how to produce creative work on demand, knowing how many client meetings you can do in a day before you are just tapped the heck out, knowing what the right balance for you between client facing work and behind the scenes work, knowing what you suck so hard at that no amount of coaching is ever going to save you, so you need to outsource that stuff. It’s like each person has
25:50 – 26:26
Diann Wingert: a bunch of different variables, a bunch of different attributes, and different attachments to what it means to get help. I mean, a lot of soloists are just what I call stubbornly self-sufficient, and they feel so much shame at the idea of asking anyone for help or even paying a contractor. So it’s like, okay, so we can either change those thoughts so this is an acceptable solution for you, or we need to make your business way more efficient so you can keep doing it on your own. I don’t take an opinion on how anyone’s business should look.
26:26 – 26:31
Diann Wingert: I may think, this is really painful for them to do it this way, but it’s their freaking life.
26:32 – 26:55
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what I liked about that is that it is uniquely customed to that individuals. I almost want to use the word triggers, but they’re dopamine hits and we all get them differently. But you’re also talking about managing energy. Like what makes you have high energy and what makes you have low energy, even though you didn’t use that word.
26:55 – 27:31
Diann Wingert: No, no, no. Listen, I’m so glad you said that because, you know, in the beginning, when I first started working with people like me, I basically would talk about time management. Then as I got more sophisticated and more nuanced, I realized, oh, I need to shift the conversation to energy management. And now I’ve added in obligation management, because it’s the emotional labor. It is what we do for others that oftentimes is the most taxing for us. And the hustle culture that we’re all a part of is really hostile and unfriendly for most of us. I think
27:31 – 28:04
Diann Wingert: we are the canaries in the coal mine. We are the orchids, not the daisies. And it’s not that we’re special snowflakes who need special handling. It’s that we have gifts. I prefer that to superpowers. We have gifts that can be unleashed and shared with the world, we can make our greatest contributions when we create hospitable and not hostile environments. And as a soloist who is self-aware, we can Absolutely do that. That’s 1 of the greatest opportunities and being self-employed,
28:04 – 28:41
Rochelle Moulton: right? Exactly. It’s kind of my point from the very beginning of working this way is that it’s an opportunity to find your genius and To Unleash it on the world. I shouldn’t use that word, unleash. It’s so overdone and hackneyed. But there you have it. It’s to be able to find a way to position, monetize, and sell that genius in a way that allows you to live the life that you want. And to me, that ties into this question of neurodiversity, because what I want can look different from what you want and need to be the
28:41 – 28:56
Rochelle Moulton: most successful and to make our genius accessible to others. So, so true. Some people want to only work in their zone of genius. So we clarify what that is. We clarify how to monetize it, how to make
28:56 – 29:26
Diann Wingert: it most profitable. And then what level of support and supervision are they capable of dealing with on an ongoing basis? A lot of people that I work with, they’re like, I do not want a team. I know I could have a ginormous business. I don’t want a freaking team. I don’t want to manage other people. I don’t want to be responsible for other people. I just want to do the best I can with me. And other people are like, hey, listen, I just want to make enough money so I can shoot the money gun at every
29:26 – 29:59
Diann Wingert: fricking thing I hate doing and make it go away. But You asked me for a specific example, and I didn’t give you 1. I think this is 1 that everyone listening can relate to. 1 of the traits, and it wasn’t on my list because it’s actually not part of the diagnostic criteria, but 1 of the things that I have discovered that the vast majority of creatives, people with ADHD, people with autism, basically people who think, feel, and do differently. I love the term ambitious outliers. 1 of the things most of us have in common is rejection
29:59 – 30:37
Diann Wingert: sensitivity. Now listen, nobody likes being rejected unless they’re a masochist. But if you are self-employed, you are literally where the buck starts and stops, so you have to market and sell unless you’ve got somebody who can market and sell your stuff for you, which I don’t think applies to anyone listening. So dealing with rejection and not just recoiling in horror or avoiding situations where we might be rejected, which means playing small, we have to learn how to manage the experience of rejection, because for many people, it’s not just mental, it is physical. And it can feel
30:37 – 31:08
Diann Wingert: like just send them totally spiraling downward. I’ve known people just literally take to their bed after a big deal, they were counting on fell through. So understanding that your sensitivity is going to make you more vulnerable to rejection, but it’s also the source of your creativity and your creative problem solving. So how do we work with this sensitivity as both a strength and a vulnerability. I find that fascinating and I love doing that kind of work.
31:09 – 31:35
Rochelle Moulton: You know, it’s funny on the Business of Authority podcast, we talked about that a lot because we had a subset of the audience that said, I don’t want to sell because I don’t want to put myself out there. Exactly. And those are the people who designed product kinds of things or SaaS, something where you could put a sign up on the internet, say, buy this for this price, boom, you’re done. They wanted the least amount of interaction possible.
31:35 – 32:14
Diann Wingert: And that’s okay. I mean, here’s the thing. When we know ourselves, when we know better, we can do better. And the first step is knowing, oh, the reason why I think feel and do differently is because I actually am different. And once I understand that, then I can become an expert at my particular flavor of neurodiversity because 2 autistic people, 2 people with ADHD, even myself and my 3 kids. There are similarities and differences. So becoming an expert in you, I think, I happen to be a practicing Buddhist, so I apply the principles of mindfulness to
32:14 – 32:50
Diann Wingert: this. And mindfulness, we don’t have to make it complicated. It’s super simple. It’s being open to what actually is and not what we think should be, being curious about how to work with what is and refusing to judge yourself for any of it. So when you apply that to like, okay, so turns out I’m 40 years old, I’m 50 years old, I’m 60 years old, and I’m just now realizing I’m on the autism spectrum or I have ADHD. You know what? You’re not too late. The rest of your life can be better with this knowledge. Be
32:50 – 33:07
Diann Wingert: open to learning. Be curious about what actually makes you feel and function better and what lets the air out of your tires and the wind out of your sails. And then use that to further yourself towards your goals. Mic drop.
33:08 – 33:29
Rochelle Moulton: I’m actually not going to ask you another question because I just think that’s the perfect thought to leave people with. Yes, that’s perfect. So I am going to ask you another question because I ask everybody this question. So going back to who you were when you first started your business, what’s the 1 thing you’d advise her to do?
33:32 – 34:10
Diann Wingert: Learn to dance with failure. Because I think, and this can be a little bit of a political statement, I think women are culturally conditioned to fear failure and to avoid it at all costs. We try to be perfect, We try not to make mistakes. And if you are going to be successfully self-employed, whether as a creative, an independent professional, a consultant, a coach, whatever, You need to learn to dance with failure and to take the fear factor out of it. Because if we aren’t willing to fail, we’re not willing to try. And if we’re not willing
34:10 – 34:15
Diann Wingert: to try, we’re not growing. So that’s what I wish I’d known then.
34:15 – 34:32
Rochelle Moulton: Yes. And you were actually very helpful to me when we talked, because it’s what made me go public with my failed experiment with masterminds for women. And it was so cathartic to put it out there and to recognize, to take the shame out of it.
34:32 – 34:35
Diann Wingert: Nobody could take the shame out of it but you. Exactly,
34:35 – 34:37
Rochelle Moulton: exactly. That’s what did it for me.
34:37 – 35:04
Diann Wingert: Yeah, there are plenty of people that’ll be like, oh, you’re not gonna tell people that, are you girl? Like, aren’t you worried what people are gonna think? Listen, let me tell you something. That’s another thing I wish I’d known. Worrying about what other people are going to think is a huge waste of time because first of all, you’re probably not going to know anyway. Secondly, you have 0 control over it. And thirdly, if you don’t make that a condition for you taking action, like that you know what people are going to think if you do, and
35:04 – 35:13
Diann Wingert: that they’re going to be okay with it, you are going to get so much farther, so much faster. Don’t care what other people think. It’s none of your business.
35:13 – 35:17
Rochelle Moulton: Well, another way to think about it is judgment. Everybody judges.
35:17 – 35:18
Diann Wingert: Yes, it’s normal. And we like to
35:18 – 35:37
Rochelle Moulton: say we don’t, but we all do. We do. And we are judged, especially as women, I think we’re judged more often and in different ways. And it’s like, you just have to let that go because it’s, I like exactly how you said, I think that’s how Byron Katie says it too, it’s not your business, it’s somebody else’s business.
35:37 – 36:14
Diann Wingert: Yeah, and guess what? I know we already did the mic drop moment, but I just have 1 more little nugget. Here’s the thing, everybody judges, And while many people would like to say that’s a character trait and, you know, church people will say, oh, that’s a sin. Well, that may be. Okay. But I’ll tell you what, it is normal, natural, human, and I think necessary to judge because of the way our brains work. And I don’t mean the ADHD brains. I mean all the brains are designed to observe, label, categorize, remember, and retrieve information. We have
36:14 – 36:35
Diann Wingert: to be able to judge to do those things. We have to be able to put labels on things, good, bad, safe, not safe, right, wrong. I want to do more of this. I want to do less of that. That’s how our brains work. It’s what separates us from the animals. So if you want to make a goal of not being judgy, you go on with your bad self, but I just don’t think it’s realistic for any of us at all.
36:38 – 36:39
Rochelle Moulton: Thank you.
36:39 – 36:40
Diann Wingert: You’re welcome.
36:41 – 36:48
Rochelle Moulton: So Diane, we’ll be putting all sorts of links to you and your content in the show notes, but where’s the best place for people to learn more about you?
36:48 – 37:23
Diann Wingert: Well, I think you should definitely check out ADHD-ish. It is the artist formerly known as the Driven Woman Entrepreneur, and there are many reasons why I changed the name of the show, but the main 1 is that I want to continue to help people who think differently, whether they have a diagnosis or not, and I do not want to just stick to helping women. So check out the podcast, and if you want to find all of the things, go to Diane Wingert coaching, and there is a link there called shiny objects. I know I just love
37:23 – 37:29
Diann Wingert: that. And it has links to all of the things like lead magnets and my email list and just all
37:29 – 37:33
Rochelle Moulton: the things to look for shiny objects on my website. Awesome. And you know we love shiny objects here.
37:33 – 37:35
Diann Wingert: Oh, we do so much.
37:36 – 37:52
Rochelle Moulton: Well, Diane, thank you. I mean, I know that you’ve given me a new perspective about not just ADHD, but neurodiversity. And I appreciate that. But I also think you’ve given the audience some insight and some things to think about. So thank you.
37:52 – 37:53
Diann Wingert: Sincerely, my pleasure.
37:54 – 38:11
Rochelle Moulton: Okay. So as we wrap up this episode, if you haven’t joined my email list yet, now is the time. Your soloist business and your future self will thank you. The link is in the show notes. That’s it for this episode. Please join us next time for The Soloist Life. Bye bye. Bye.
